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Obama's Health Care Plan for the US

Proposed Health Care Plan  

15 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you support this?

    • Yes.
      5
    • No.
      6
    • Neutral.
      1
    • No interest.
      3


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I'm going to show you both sides of the story, please read before you vote. I know it's a lot, so read or scan it to get an idea of both sides.

 

The Myths, and what universal health care will do.

"I suffer no illusions that this will be an easy process. It will be hard. But I also know that nearly a century after Teddy Roosevelt first called for reform, the cost of our health care has weighed down our economy and the conscience of our nation long enough. So let there be no doubt: health care reform cannot wait, it must not wait, and it will not wait another year."

 

– President Barack Obama, February 24, 2009

 

Comprehensive health care reform can no longer wait. Rapidly escalating health care costs are crushing family, business, and government budgets. Employer-sponsored health insurance premiums have doubled in the last 9 years, a rate 3 times faster than cumulative wage increases. This forces families to sit around the kitchen table to make impossible choices between paying rent or paying health premiums. Given all that we spend on health care, American families should not be presented with that choice. The United States spent approximately $2.2 trillion on health care in 2007, or $7,421 per person – nearly twice the average of other developed nations. Americans spend more on health care than on housing or food. If rapid health cost growth persists, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that by 2025, one out of every four dollars in our national economy will be tied up in the health system. This growing burden will limit other investments and priorities that are needed to grow our economy. Rising health care costs also affect our economic competitiveness in the global economy, as American companies compete against companies in other countries that have dramatically lower health care costs.

 

The President has vowed that the health reform process will be different in his Administration – an open, inclusive, and transparent process where all ideas are encouraged and all parties work together to find a solution to the health care crisis. Working together with members of Congress, doctors and hospitals, businesses and unions, and other key health care stakeholders, the President is committed to making sure we finally enact comprehensive health care reform.

 

The Administration believes that comprehensive health reform should:

 

* Reduce long-term growth of health care costs for businesses and government

* Protect families from bankruptcy or debt because of health care costs

* Guarantee choice of doctors and health plans

* Invest in prevention and wellness

* Improve patient safety and quality of care

* Assure affordable, quality health coverage for all Americans

* Maintain coverage when you change or lose your job

* End barriers to coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions

 

Please visit www.HealthReform.gov to learn more about the President’s commitment to enacting comprehensive health reform this year.

More than 50 percent of Americans believe a public insurance option will increase health care costs, according to a new survey on assertions the White House has called myths.

 

The national survey, conducted from Aug. 14 – 18, involved a random sample of 600 Americans aged 18 and older living in the 48 contiguous states and Washington, D.C. Respondents indicated whether or not they believed 19 claims about health care reform, each of which is considered a myth by the White House.

 

The results could speak to the current partisan debate on a proposed health care overhaul. While overall the majority of Americans said they believe many of the assertions, more Republicans and Independents than Democrats stood by the claims.

 

"It's perhaps not surprising that more Republicans believe these things than Democrats," said study scientist Dr. Aaron Carroll, director of Indiana University's Center for Health Policy and Professionalism Research. "What is surprising is just how many Republicans – and Independents – believe them. If the White House hopes to convince the majority of Americans that they are misinformed about health care reform, there is much work to be done."

 

Among the results on items the White House considers myths:

 

* 67 percent of respondents believe that wait times for health care services, such as surgery, will increase (91 percent of Republicans, 37 percent of Democrats, 72 percent of Independents).

* About five out of 10 believe the federal government will become directly involved in making personal health care decisions (80 percent of Republicans, 25 percent of Democrats, 56 percent of Independents).

* Roughly six out of 10 Americans believe taxpayers will be required to pay for abortions (78 percent of Republicans, 30 percent of Democrats, 58 percent of Independents)

* 46 percent believe reforms will result in health care coverage for all illegal immigrants (66 percent of Republicans, 29 percent of Democrats, 43 percent of Independents).

* 54 percent believe the public option will increase premiums for Americans with private health insurance (78 percent of Republicans, 28 percent of Democrats, 58 percent of Independents).

* Five out of 10 think cuts will be made to Medicare in order to cover more Americans (66 percent of Republicans, 37 percent of Democrats, 44 percent of Independents).

 

There were exceptions.

 

Fewer participants believe "myths" regarding the impact of proposed changes on current health insurance coverage. For instance, less than 30 percent think private insurance coverage will be eliminated. And just 36 percent think a public insurance option will put private insurance companies out of business.

 

In addition, only three out of 10 respondents believe the government will require the elderly to make decisions about how and when they will die.

 

When health care is for profit, it's profit first, people second. Almost 50 million people in the US without health insurance and many more with health insurance go bankrupt just trying to pay for basic health care. You have (apparently) no idea how much the 'for profit' health care companies have bloated the costs.

 

It is not the government that will screw this up, it's the health insurance and HMO's that will and they'll do it for profit ($12 billion).

 

-> just_curious: have you suffered a serious illness or health issue? I bet your insurance company will go to any lengths to drop your coverage as soon as you start to cost them money.

 

Most other first world countries have some form of universal health care, except the USA.

 

You go ahead and let the health insurance and HMO's corps etc make up your mind for you, I wouldn't say the american people are the most gullible, just controlled by the corporate leeches.

The arguments
Questions for thought:

When you say there are "Almost 50 million people in the US without health insurance.." and

it is claimed that the gov't. plan will not "insure" illegal aliens, then why are the illegal aliens

included when counting the 50 million uninsured?

 

You say "It is not the government that will screw this up, it's the health insurance and HMO's that will and they'll do it for profit ($12 billion)." I ask, can you name a gov't. run program

that is not screwed up? By screwed up I'll give the definition for the purposes of the question:

A gov't. run program that did/does not cost the taxpayers millions/billions/trillions more than what the gov't. claimed that it would.

 

Most other first world countries have some form of universal health care, except the USA.

...and the question is "what are Medicare and Medicaid?".

 

You go ahead and let the health insurance and HMO's corps etc make up your mind for you, I wouldn't say the american people are the most gullible, just controlled by the corporate leeches. ... and I question do you have a job provided by one of those corporate leeches?

 

I'd rather have the option of the freedom to choose what the corporate leeches have to offer

THAN be forced by the gov't. to take what THEY THINK I should PAY FOR.

 

Fact: the CBO projected costs at 1.8Trillion dollars. The curve does not bend down, but goes up.

Fact: illegal immigrants will not be denied coverage under the public option. There is no requirement anywhere in HR3200 for administrators to check for id or to follow-up on who's registering.

Fact: studies show that increased access to healthful foods, early interventions, etc, increase health outcomes in society. We can improve existing programs to meet these basic healthful requirements without introducing a public option

Fact: Obama campaigned on making health care more affordable, not mandating coverage (i.e. universalizing) it to all. He said coverage should be mandatory for children up to age 26. Whether or not we go to a single payer public option, the problem is that HR3200 will require everyone to have health insurance in 5 years with gov. mandated minimum requirements.

Fact: he said families would save 2500/yr. With a 1.8 Trillion dollar cost, this is almost an impossibility--families will be taxed somewhere to pay for this. It is not "deficit neutral."

The problem I have is they are lumping about 5 different things into the same pot and calling it health insurance reform.

 

1. The purpose of all insurance is to take very expensive very unlikely events and spread the cost out to a group that voluntarily pays premiums. Examples are your untimely death, wrecking your car, or getting cancer. Insurance companies profit by being able to calculate those risks and expenses and charge the highest premium they can. I think people confuse health care with health insurance. What we have right now is a bastardization of the two. Why use insurance when you go for a routine visit? That's like paying for car insurance that covers all minor repairs and maintenance.

 

2. I do favor one time of socialist health care. Emergency care. A free market doesn't work well in an emergency. If you are going to die without medical care in 5 minutes you don't have time to shop around and compare. Just like Police, Fire, EMT's are all paid for by local taxes so should Emergency Room Care. The reform I'd like to see here would allow hospitals to deny treatment for non-emergencies. Just like if you call 911 because you have a cold or the Police if you can't get it your way at the drive thru you should be fined if you show up to an Emergency Room with a non-emergency.

 

3. The free market can work to lower medical costs for things that you have time to shop and compare . Look at industries that don't take insurance like laser eye surgery and plastic surgery. Those costs keep going down because of the profit motive. People don't want glasses but have to pay out of pocket for the surgery. So companies design machines cheaper and cheaper to provide this service.

 

4. Eliminate Patents and Prescriptions on Drugs. There is no reason you should need a doctors note for a drug. Why should you have to spend $100 on a doctors visit when you know what you have? If you have had 1 ear infection you know what it feels like. You know you need the anti-biotic ear drops. The drops only cost about $20 (at least they do for my dog). Why make someone wait? Some may argue that the patent is needed for the drug makers to recoup their costs. But if you are first to market it will take 2 years for someone to reverse engineer not only the drug but the process to make it and get to market. You can recoup your profits in those 2 years. Plus if you eliminate the FDA and prescriptions you will get it to market sooner and cheaper.

 

5. Legal reform for drugs and doctors. The problem I have with suing drug makers is that they only sell a product. If they are selling what they claim (ie the chemicals in the bottle are what they say on the side) then they shouldn't be liable for how you use it. Just like herbs and other natural products today. You can claim this mushroom or that root helps some disease but it is up to the person and their doctor to decide if it is right or not. As long as what they are selling you is what they claim it to be.

 

As for doctors. Just like you can't sue police for not showing up and stopping a robbery or sue the fire department for not saving your house in a fire you shouldn't be able to sue a doctor for not saving your limb or life. If you are in an emergency where you are going to die and a doctor tries to save you but can't he shouldn't be liable. Now this again is different then in a situation where they have time to study the condition. In those cases the patient should be allowed to buy outcome based insurance for themselves. Like the insurance you can buy at an airport in case your plane crashes you should be allowed to buy your own insurance before surgery. Plus you can use those premiums as a guide to the quality of your doctor.

 

The president has correctly diagnosed the need for major health care reform in our country. The problem is that the prescription being offered by Congress is worse than the disease.

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Heath care costs have been rising much faster than inflation for several years. These costs consume an ever-increasing portion of all family and business budgets, including the city government's budget. Indeed, city and state governments face an increasingly difficult time balancing the budget because of the rapid escalating cost of health care coverage.

 

The solution, however, isn't spending a trillion dollars and creating a new federal bureaucracy. Those who are currently satisfied with their doctor and health care may find that they have fewer options than they currently do. Rationing treatment has become the key feature in most government health care systems outside of the U.S. Ultimately, with a massive new government health insurance system, all Americans will end up with a medical system that delivers all of the compassion of the IRS and the efficiency of the building department. This is the wrong way to fix health care for our families.

 

Instead, major reforms that will increase competition and reduce the cost of health care, without bankrupting the taxpayers, should be instituted, including:

 

• Malpractice tort reform. It is estimated that nearly one-third of all medical procedures today are for "defensive medicine," to protect doctors from malpractice lawsuits. Similarly, malpractice insurance is increasingly the largest single cost most medical doctors today have to pay to continue to practice. A cap on non-economic "pain and suffering" damages at the greater of $250,000 or triple economic damages will go a long way toward reducing rising health care costs. States that have instituted malpractice tort reform have seen their health care costs rise at a slower rate than the national average. It's time for Congress to enact national medical malpractice reform.

 

• Interstate health insurance. Currently, 90 percent of Hawai'i residents get their health insurance from just two insurers: HMSA and Kaiser. If a Hawai'i resident wants to shop for health insurance from other major insurers like Cigna, Aetna, or United Health, you can't by law. That's nonsensical. We should allow any validly licensed health insurance company to offer health insurance in all states to increase competition and offer more choices to the public. More competition will yield greater coverage and lower medical costs.

 

• Individual tax deduction of health insurance. We need to fundamentally change the way we tax health insurance. Today, health insurance is largely obtained through your employer using a corporate tax deduction. There is always a market disconnect, however, when the purchaser of a product is different from the consumer, as in the health insurance market. Health insurance should instead be an individual choice with an individual tax deduction rather than a corporate tax deduction. The health insurance market should be made more similar to the home or auto insurance market where individual families, not employers, decide which insurance company to use. By allowing an individual deduction for health insurance we can make health insurance a more "normal" market and better contain out-of-control costs.

 

A greater portion of the U.S. economy goes to pay for health care than any other Westernized nation and too many Americans are not covered by our health care system. We need meaningful fixes that bring down the ever-escalating cost of health care without destroying the positive aspects of medicine in America. Establishing a government run "public option" and spending more money to reduce health care spending does not make sense. Creative ideas to encourage more competition and broaden the reach of health care, however, are just what the doctor ordered.

 

If you scanned or read those all of this, then I would love to hear your opinion.

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I am not going to support or will ever support socialist communist health care. And that is what this is. Government having complete control over who lives and who dies.

 

This plan is great for the majority of the country (the healthy people) but there is a big problem with a universal health care. That is, the people that need to get care for a disease like cancer, will have a long waiting period before getting expensive and essential care. Even if the care is approved usually this type of wait is 1 to 2 years.

 

We learn this from the socialist health care in Canada. The people in Canada have great health care for the healthy. You know the people that don't go to the doctor? Yeah it is great for them. However if you look at the number of people that are admitted for Cancer treatment and other major/expensive medical care; you will see that the numbers are very low.

 

Why is this you might ask? That is, it takes over a year to get approval for those treatments and most of the time a person who has cancer has less time than the waiting period to live.

 

So what does the cancer patients in Canada do? They spend $100's of thousands to come down to the US and get their treatment in order to save their lives! Where does that leave Americans and Canadians then? Are we going to have to travel to India to get our treatments? Will that save us money? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

 

This health care is only good for the socialists, healthy people that never go to the doctor, and more government control. More government control over the people is a bad thing.

 

There is much more to this debate then just the "free market" debate. This is about government control over the people and euthanasia of the elderly and terminally ill. I bet you guys didn't know that another part of this health care plan includes only a set amount of medication that can be covered for the elderly. So when you turn 55 years old you are no longer covered completely by the heath care plan and most crucial surgeries and procedures to save the elderly are not covered either.

 

The question is not, "do you support this health care plan" but the real question is "do you support socialist communism and euthanasia and the genocide of the weak?"

 

My answer is this; I support life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, I will never support euthanasia, communism and genocide. Therefore, I reject this health care plan, and if your values are the same as mine then you should not support this health care plan!

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I don't support government run health care PERIOD. I find that if a person doesn't have health insurance, its their fault.

 

If this does pass, and it DOES cover illegal immigrants I will leave the United States after I get out of the Army.

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Politics on this website?

LOL!

 

 

 

umm, first of all, who said everyone is entitled to health care?

 

Why should I PAY for someone elses health care?

 

 

its not China.

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I don't support government run health care PERIOD.

I am to assume you don't support medicare? That's a rather harsh thing to say.

 

Why should I PAY for someone elses health care?

Why should I PAY for the military to kill people in Iraq and Afghanistan?

first of all, who said everyone is entitled to health care?
they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

If you don't believe this entitles people to be healthy, then fine. That's your interpretation.

 

I am not going to support or will ever support socialist communist health care. And that is what this is. Government having complete control over who lives and who dies.

I stopped reading there. If you aren't even familiar with the health care bill, then just don't talk about it. Save yourself the trouble and embarrassment of looking like an uninformed idiot.

 

I wish some one here actually KNEW what they were talking about so that maybe we could have an intelligent conversation.

 

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the food and drug administration.

 

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US congress and kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology and the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the environmental protection agency, using legal tender issed by the federal reserve bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school.

 

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the department of labor and the occupational safety and health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to ny house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshal’s inspection, and which has not been plundered of all it’s valuables thanks to the local police department.

 

I then log on to the internet which was developed by the defense advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.com and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can’t do anything right.

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Poply that was just about the dumbest thing ive heard from you.

 

Umm because they want to kill us.

 

 

And yes, Health care IS NOT an entitlement.

Thats up to you to afford, get a nice job and you can afford good health coverage.

 

You said you wanted an intelligent conversation on this?

 

Well all I have to say is study Canadas health care, I used to have the EXACT stats on how long it takes a person with heart dieses to get it checked out, i believe it was months. And to get surgery it took many months.

 

So let me ask you this, lets say you need to be operated on soon or you will lose your life but you cant be treated for another 5 months because everyone has healthcare. What then?

 

People deserve ONLY WHAT THEY EARN.

God stop putting the poor on a fucking pedestal

 

man im fucking out, im not even going to contribute to this conversation, how the fuck do you know what real life is like when you sit on your ass and attend high school still and still live in moms house. You have no idea how harsh the taxes have become, and what?

reality is i gotta pay for some lazy ass family who has 11 kids.

Man fuck obama and his entire administration they ran this place into the ground with their stimulus.

 

/rant+out

Edited by ///M

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They want to kill us? Iraq couldn't have even put a dent in America, pre-invasion. But I'd rather stay on topic. You're question was asking why you were responsible for paying for other's health care when you believed that they didn't deserve it. And I asked the exact same question except asking why I was responsible for funding a war instead of funding health care. Short answer: They're taxes, it's part of having a government. But it doesn't even matter because we don't, and aren't even talking about universal health care.

We're both trying to save lives here.

 

Canada's health care system has nothing to do with the current bill that is in question. Infact, it's not even the same system. They have universal health care and the current bill offers a public option to health insurance.

Nice try though.

 

I didn't think you'd resort to personal attacks so quickly. And no; I don't go to high school. If you're going to try insulting some one, atleast make sure you're not pulling the insults straight out of your ass.

 

Harsh taxes? Let's take a look:

17elns.png

 

Oh wow, it's actually pretty low when compared to the rest of the industrialized world. If you've got more recent and up to date data, feel free to post it.

 

 

I think I covered everything in your post. It's easy to talk about a subject when you're not totally ignorant about it.

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I support this bill because it can be run through taxes. Yes, taxes may increase, but hey, someone's gotta pay for the budget deficit we're in (wonder how we got here?). Sure, I think he should have waited to implement this bill, that way the budget could be a bit more balanced, but this will allow everyone to have at the very least, a guaranteed health insurance. Yes it benefits the healthy, but there are more healthy people than sick people. It's mostly for those, oh sh*t moments when an accident occurs.

 

I am also coming from an unbiased point of view, for I have free health insurance. And yet, I still pay taxes like everyone else in this country. So technically, it's still not quite free now is it?

 

As for the long wait before things actually happen to those extreme cases where a patient needs treatment or else they'll die. I'm very sure we can improve this system so that this period of time can be shortened.

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I'm not positive, but it seems like you think the bill includes universal health care. It doesn't.

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Wait. So what this health care reform plan says is that you would have to pay extra taxes, so that instead of the companies who overcharge people for the cost of being covered, but when you actually get in trouble would just run away instead, you get a public "free" option to be covered for basic health care by the government, "free" meaning everyone is paying for it in the form of taxes? But whoever wants to can still choose other companies that provide paid health care, and would still have your fast care if you have the money and you want it? And at the end it was saying that people should be allowed to choose any healthcare companies of all states instead of being limited to only a few options, who can use this opportunity to increase their prices sky high, and there's nothing you can do.

 

 

In case I comprehended it wrong, then tell me if I did, and what I did.

 

 

So my question is, why is this so bad for you? I mean, if you lost your job because your company from one day to another said they don't need you anymore, you wouldn't immediately find a job afterwards (let's say 5 months of unemployment, and you originally had 2000$ for you but you had to pay it all away for taxes, food and just plain living, so you are in debts, and you cannot pay for healthcare), then would you rather just say "oh woe, I've run out of money and I deserve to die" or would you say "oh for god's sake someone help me!!!1!"? Because those above, like Ares, said that those who don't have enough money deserve to die for "losing the game". I don't think you can just disregard the fact that they were unlucky, but they are still HUMAN BEINGS. What if you get in that situation later? Do you also deserve to die? Or would your daddy pay for your health care because you're spoiled? I don't see why you would say that all beings unable to pay deserve to suffer and die of some disease you would get a treatment for just because you were lucky to get a job immediately.

 

 

So anyways, I believe Poply is correct in everything he said. He knows all of this better than me, I might be wrong about my statement, but he knows what he's talking about, and... of course, go down to the store and buy some humaneness. Because right now, it's disgusting how you just neglect the surrounding world around you, their lives, and everyone until only you see how shit it is to be dying of some rather easily treatable disease just because you don't have the money required.

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Wait. So what this health care reform plan says is that you would have to pay extra taxes, so that instead of the companies who overcharge people for the cost of being covered, but when you actually get in trouble would just run away instead, you get a public "free" option to be covered for basic health care by the government, "free" meaning everyone is paying for it in the form of taxes? But whoever wants to can still choose other companies that provide paid health care, and would still have your fast care if you have the money and you want it? And at the end it was saying that people should be allowed to choose any healthcare companies of all states instead of being limited to only a few options, who can use this opportunity to increase their prices sky high, and there's nothing you can do.

It offers a public, government run health insurance. It's basically just another health insurance company except its run by the government. If you don't want it, you won't be paying for it. Anyone can stick with their current health insurance provider. The bill also does a variety of other things such as not allow insurance companies to deny coverage for preexisting conditions, and alot of other stuff which I'm unfamiliar with.

 

There's actually little-to-no reforming of health care, mostly health insurance.

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Ah, then it's pretty much as I gathered, and I hope as I said. So, how is this bad for the US again? Or are people just weepy that there's some change, and are against it for no reason?

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I am not going to support or will ever support socialist communist health care. And that is what this is. Government having complete control over who lives and who dies.

I stopped reading there. If you aren't even familiar with the health care bill, then just don't talk about it. Save yourself the trouble and embarrassment of looking like an uninformed idiot.

 

I wish some one here actually KNEW what they were talking about so that maybe we could have an intelligent conversation.

 

 

 

So you are a supporter of socialist communism and euthanasia? You enjoy having more government control? Don't you remember what socialist communism did in Europe with Hitler? You must be one of those people that say "Sure communism killed 100 million of people last century, but that was just because the U.S. didn't give it a chance to succeed." And you call me an idiot and claim I don't know what I am talking about? Save you petty flames for the flame board. If you can't even make a post without bashing someone then get out of this section. I know what the bill is all about. Unlike some naive liberals, I actually search into the bill and find out the things that the main stream media doesn't talk about.

 

Here are some things that the main stream media doesn't talk about that are in the bill.

 

From the 1,017 pages long Obama's health care reform bill. As stated by Mike Adams; Editor of the Health Ranger & NaturalNews and expert on Obama's health care reform bill

 

•Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the government option!

• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!

• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!

• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)

• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.

• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.

• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)

• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.

• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)

• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens

• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.

• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.

• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.

• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.

• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.

• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.

• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll

• Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll

 

You say you want to have an intellectual conversation. Please explain why these points above are good! Bashing and acting like you are doing poply, doesn't make your points any better; they do the exact opposite and hurt your argument.

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I don't see why I have to pay for every one else to stay healthy when I am already paying to keep myself healthy (A.k.a: I pay for my health insurance why must I pay for every one else?)

 

And to answer your question poply. No, I don't.

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Can someone explain to me how this is going to get is out of this huge debt? This is going to send America another trillion dollars in debt on top of what we already have. The taxes are getting raised to pay for a new service, not pay for our debt.

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I am not going to support or will ever support socialist communist health care. And that is what this is. Government having complete control over who lives and who dies.

I stopped reading there. If you aren't even familiar with the health care bill, then just don't talk about it. Save yourself the trouble and embarrassment of looking like an uninformed idiot.

 

I wish some one here actually KNEW what they were talking about so that maybe we could have an intelligent conversation.

 

 

 

So you are a supporter of socialist communism and euthanasia? You enjoy having more government control? Don't you remember what socialist communism did in Europe with Hitler? You must be one of those people that say "Sure communism killed 100 million of people last century, but that was just because the U.S. didn't give it a chance to succeed." And you call me an idiot and claim I don't know what I am talking about? Save you petty flames for the flame board. If you can't even make a post without bashing someone then get out of this section. I know what the bill is all about. Unlike some naive liberals, I actually search into the bill and find out the things that the main stream media doesn't talk about.

 

Here are some things that the main stream media doesn't talk about that are in the bill.

 

From the 1,017 pages long Obama's health care reform bill. As stated by Mike Adams; Editor of the Health Ranger & NaturalNews and expert on Obama's health care reform bill

 

•Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the government option!

• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!

• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!

• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)

• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.

• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.

• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)

• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.

• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)

• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens

• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.

• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.

• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.

• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.

• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.

• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.

• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll

• Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll

You say you want to have an intellectual conversation. Please explain why these points above are good! Bashing and acting like you are doing poply, doesn't make your points any better; they do the exact opposite and hurt your argument.

"So you are a supporter of socialist communism and euthanasia?" Communism and socialism are different. You've lost all credibility at the first sentence. The bill does not set up a universal health insurance so this has nothing to do with socialism. To even say the word "socialism" as if it is bad, is wrong in it's own right. We enjoy plenty of socialized services each and everyday.

 

"You must be one of those people that say '...' "I don't know enough about communism to have a firm stance on it. But based on history, it seems like it just doesn't work.

 

"Don't you remember what socialist communism did in Europe with Hitler? " Socialist communism? Do you mean the USSR? Well, they opposed and attacked Nazi Germany in world war 2. I think that was your question.

 

"And you call me an idiot and claim I don't know what I am talking about?" You've demonstrated that yourself.

 

"Unlike some naive liberals" Ooh, so THIS is what it's all about. You're not arguing because you believe the bill is wrong. You're arguing because you don't like some people with different political ideologies. This is an "Us versus Them" thing. Otherwise you would've said "naive people".

 

Page 16: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/st...place-under-re/

 

Page 22: I'm not even sure what this means.

 

Page: 29: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/st...ical-treatment/

 

I could go on and on but it'd just be a waste of my time.

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Healthcare reform is the answer but the solution is not this bill. Honestly, the last thing our country needs right now is healthcare reform. Jobs is what needs to come first. Jobs is what matters most. Employed people are going to contribute to the tax base which in turn will bring the debt down which means we can stop borrowing from China. With Obama printing more money, the value of the dollar continues to plummet. Healthcare reform would pass with a government option when everyone is making money again. But with so many people struggling they are too emotionally connected to debt and hearing the USA going in to further debt for something the USA can't afford right now is the biggest turn off.

 

As far as this bill, an an employer, our monthly costs for healthcare is 16.8% of payroll. This bill says if companies don't offer healthcare, they will be charged a tax of 8%. It doesn't take a much thought at all for me to come to the conclusion that if this bill passes, I will drop the private healthcare plan in favor of the government. That will be an 8.8% savings per month. So, where is the option for the employees that Obama says is there. It's not. After all, I will offer the employees the option to pay the other plan out of pocket, which in effect, would be a paycut or go on the government plan. I've already talked to my employees and they don't want to pay for healthcare themselves so they will go to what ever I decide. So, no option. I the employer made the decision. I'm just a small business of 5. What do you think companies that are 25, 50, 100 or more are going to do? Think about public companies that are focused on savings, costs share prices, share holders, etc. They will dump the private sector program for government in a heartbeat. Another thing to point out is with the government forcing healthcare, it's no longer part of the benefits packages.

 

Allow for direct competition. Healthcare is like gas stations. When there isn't a of gas stations in the area, then your charged premium prices. When there is 4 gas stations on every corner prices come down. In some states, there is only 2 providers and most have only 4. Open the state lines up for companies to compete nationally and prices will go down. Epecially for comapnies that operate in multiple states where the employer is forced to use the local healthcare companies instead of shopping their ENTIRE employee base to a single insurance company. THAT would drive costs down.

 

Bottom line is, Obama is talking to the individual but the fact of the matter is, employers are the ones he should be courting. Employers want to provide benefits to their employees. It's in the best interest of the employer is the employees are healthly. But to not allow the employer to shop for heathcare anywhere he wants and only give two options a) what's avaiable in the state or :D government run with a 50% savings that's not really options! And that is NOT options for employees, the individual.

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Healthcare reform is the answer but the solution is not this bill. Honestly, the last thing our country needs right now is healthcare reform. Jobs is what needs to come first. Jobs is what matters most. Employed people are going to contribute to the tax base which in turn will bring the debt down which means we can stop borrowing from China. With Obama printing more money, the value of the dollar continues to plummet. Healthcare reform would pass with a government option when everyone is making money again. But with so many people struggling they are too emotionally connected to debt and hearing the USA going in to further debt for something the USA can't afford right now is the biggest turn off.

 

As far as this bill, an an employer, our monthly costs for healthcare is 16.8% of payroll. This bill says if companies don't offer healthcare, they will be charged a tax of 8%. It doesn't take a much thought at all for me to come to the conclusion that if this bill passes, I will drop the private healthcare plan in favor of the government. That will be an 8.8% savings per month. So, where is the option for the employees that Obama says is there. It's not. After all, I will offer the employees the option to pay the other plan out of pocket, which in effect, would be a paycut or go on the government plan. I've already talked to my employees and they don't want to pay for healthcare themselves so they will go to what ever I decide. So, no option. I the employer made the decision. I'm just a small business of 5. What do you think companies that are 25, 50, 100 or more are going to do? Think about public companies that are focused on savings, costs share prices, share holders, etc. They will dump the private sector program for government in a heartbeat. Another thing to point out is with the government forcing healthcare, it's no longer part of the benefits packages.

 

Allow for direct competition. Healthcare is like gas stations. When there isn't a of gas stations in the area, then your charged premium prices. When there is 4 gas stations on every corner prices come down. In some states, there is only 2 providers and most have only 4. Open the state lines up for companies to compete nationally and prices will go down. Epecially for comapnies that operate in multiple states where the employer is forced to use the local healthcare companies instead of shopping their ENTIRE employee base to a single insurance company. THAT would drive costs down.

 

Bottom line is, Obama is talking to the individual but the fact of the matter is, employers are the ones he should be courting. Employers want to provide benefits to their employees. It's in the best interest of the employer is the employees are healthly. But to not allow the employer to shop for heathcare anywhere he wants and only give two options a) what's avaiable in the state or :D government run with a 50% savings that's not really options! And that is NOT options for employees, the individual.

I agree right now is a terrible time to try to get health insurance reform done. The economy is in shambles.

 

Regarding the 8% tax increase:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/st...ployers-drop-c/

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history has been down this road too many times.

 

 

 

 

 

"government will decide what coverage you need"

 

 

Last time i checked its my own fucking body, i should be able to decide what i want FOR MYSELF.

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history has been down this road too many times.

 

 

 

 

 

"government will decide what coverage you need"

 

 

Last time i checked its my own fucking body, i should be able to decide what i want FOR MYSELF.

"Down this road too many times"? I actually don't recall any government offering a public option, I may be wrong. Oh wait-Were you referring to universal health care? Well, we aren't getting universal health care and even if we were your point would be moot since you're relying on history, yet every other 1st world country offers some form of universal health care.

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Poply if you don't even know what communism is then you can't say

 

Communism and socialism are different. You've lost all credibility at the first sentence.

It is true that they are different. But why can't you say this?

 

Because first of all socialism is not a form of government or a political system; it is a theory of economic organization. Second Communism is a form of government. So you can put the two together to represent an idea.

 

Also socialism can be used as a transitional stage between capitalism and communism. Vladimir Lenin was famous for this stage/idea.

 

It's only until the invention of the socialist democrat that socialism can be tagged with the word freedom.

 

Now about your rebuttal on the points in the bill. Those things that I listed are in fact listed in the bill. You can pick up a copy and read it for yourself. Also the website you linked is PolitiFact a Pulitzer prize winner that is bias towards the Obama administration. So the political points that it has on it's site for the truth-o-meter is a well known bias and it holds no weight. It is simply a "make the people feel good" about the crap that the Obama administration is doing. Also the Obama administration helps fund that site. So using that site as a site of reference holds absolutely no weight in your argument due to the bias.

 

Now about communism; it is a form of government in which the state operates under a one-party system and the government has complete control over everything: the religions, market, business, health care, medical system; . . . . everything!

 

There are 3 major examples of communism in history. The one that you are familiar with a little is the USSR but also others are Germany's National Socialism under Hitler (which originally was opposed to communism but turned into communism once Hitler was put in power. This was done by eliminating the other political parties influence in the country;) and Communist/Red China (which is still in operation).

 

Also Poply why don't you think that this is universal health care? Please explain your reasoning behind this statement because I don't think you know what Universal heath care means.

 

Here is the definition of Universal Health Care:

 

Universal health care is health care coverage for all eligible residents of a political region and often covers medical, dental and mental health care. Typically, costs are borne in the majority by government-funded programs. And that is exactly what the Obama administration is proposing.

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Oh wow, look.

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/pe...byruling/false/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/pr...promise-broken/

 

Yup, so biased...

 

 

Please, if all you're going to say the sources are biased, then this is over. I won't be able to talk to you seriously anymore.

 

The rest of your argument is semantics. But lets pretend, for just a moment, that universal health care was being voted on, and it was in the bill, and the government would basically control most of the health care industry. Does that make us communists? socialists? No. We'd be just like every other industrialized country in the world.

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/pr...alth-care-bill/

 

What's that? It says, "NO ACTION".

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/st...s-no-guarantee/ (Kind of a dated article)

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Well wither we like it or not, Obama implied that he will pass the bill even if the Republicans and Democrats reject it; in his last speech. So now it is up to the individual states to take a stance on the bill to reject it or accept it. This will be interesting to see how it plays out.

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What do you mean "he will pass the bill"? I guess I don't understand since I haven't seen that speech.

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I am talking about the speech that he gave to congress on last Wednesday 09/09/09.

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